Craft Chat Concept over talent?

[Claire G]

What are your thoughts on the below? This is from an editor and former agent. Obviously, the ideal would be to have both, but it's interesting that concept wins over writing quality.

"Here’s the thing: if you’re a technically brilliant writer, with a real grasp of voice, sense of place, characterisation, plot, etc. you have a shot at an agent and publishing deal, for sure. Talent matters. But if you’re a pretty good writer with a knock-out concept, you’re at a major advantage over any of those technical geniuses. Writing can always be improved - you can learn to write better. You can be edited. But crafting a concept - expressing it in a way that feels fresh and easy to digest - that’s going to be more important in gaining you industry success." My most popular Substack post and why it gets people talking

 

[Aethalope]

I think this is very true. Although I might go a bit further to say that a concept that fits the zeitgeist will beat a better concept that doesn't. The Backrooms, for example, strikes a chord in a way it might not have done ten years ago.

 

[Claire G]

I think this is very true. Although I might go a bit further to say that a concept that fits the zeitgeist will beat a better concept that doesn't. The Backrooms, for example, strikes a chord in a way it might not have done ten years ago.

Great point!

 

[RK Wallis]

You only need to look at Twilight or 50 Shades to see this statement in action.

@Aethalope I wonder if there's an exercise we can come up with that exercises our concept muscle in the brain for Write Club South? Obviously we wouldn't want anyone sharing something they want to write (that's something for huddles), but an exercise that kickstarts the muscle. I have my thinking cap on

 

[Aethalope]

I wonder if there's an exercise we can come up with that exercises our concept muscle in the brain for Write Club South?

That's a great idea! I am sure we can develop something to flex those muscles

 

[Aethalope]

@RK Wallis Alyssa Matestic has a good exercise. We can see if we can formulate a more group-friendly exercise around it.

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[Sedayne]

I think concept over skill is true of commercial fiction. But it's not what I enjoy reading.
Give me something deeper, more contemplative with a profound insight into what it is to be human and, yes, beautifully written. But I know I'm in the minority.

 

[RK Wallis]

Great find @Aethalope !!

I think concept over skill is true of commercial fiction.

I beg to disagree. High concept, yes. Concept, no. Watch the exercise Alyssa proposes. You could apply it to any type of novel, and it helps an agent picture your novel in a split second. If you want to trad publish, IMHO, that's an invaluable skill.

 

[Ed Simnett]

There is some meta to this. I've heard an agent say "I'm kind of over 'Bambi meets Star Wars'" as a way of describing ideas. "Unless it's obvious you spend more time trying to grok the parallel than understanding the idea in front of you."

That said, I do routinely describe the biggest publishing sensation of the last 30 years as "Enid Blyton with wands"

 

[Sedayne]

I watched the video, and she specifically says high concept at the start.
Maybe I just don't get it.
I don't know any of the books or films she mentions. I don't watch much film or TV, and I dislike novels that read as if they had a film in mind. I'm aware this is likely my downfall, and as I said, I know I'm in a minority.
I'm a words and sound person. My brain can't handle all the visual stuff.
I agree it's an invaluable skill and my lack of it puts me at a disadvantage, but I also don't want to sacrifice the kind of writer I am becoming in order to fit into someone else's ideas of what a writer is supposed to be.

 

[Aethalope]

I think high concept and good voice/writing can go hand-in-hand. Something like Life of Pi, Curious Incident, and Murderbot? Easily pitched but also very well written with great voice.

 

[BrianY]

I thought that coming up with great concepts was a talent in itself.

 

[Josephine]

I watched the video, and she specifically says high concept at the start.
Maybe I just don't get it.
I don't know any of the books or films she mentions. I don't watch much film or TV, and I dislike novels that read as if they had a film in mind. I'm aware this is likely my downfall, and as I said, I know I'm in a minority.
I'm a words and sound person. My brain can't handle all the visual stuff.
I agree it's an invaluable skill and my lack of it puts me at a disadvantage, but I also don't want to sacrifice the kind of writer I am becoming in order to fit into someone else's ideas of what a writer is supposed to be.

Agreed. 'High concept' makes me turn off if anything. Broadly speaking I'm a lot less interested in the idea than in the way it's executed.

Having said that, the most recent book I've added to my have-to-read library list I selected on the strength of one phrase in the blurb, 'fen gothic'. Really can't recall anything else about it but every time I think of that phrase I'm excited to read it. It's more a vibe that's being suggested there than a concept though, I guess? Super specific genre mashups definitely catch my attention, provided I'm interested in the ingredients (see also 'absurdist bureaucracy thriller').

I suspect I've gone off on a tangent here mind you, since genre probably can't replace concept in a query letter...

 

[MattScho]

It reminds me of one of the more famous business expressions: Good today beats perfect tomorrow every time.
A good example on the original quote: King admits he is not, technically, a great writer. But his mind for story is kind of untouchable and he is an absolute master story-teller. There's a reason that several of the best movies ever made are based on what springs from his mind. It takes a mind for great concepts to produce the stories for the Green Mile, Shawshank, the Shining, Stand by Me, etc.

 

[Ed Simnett]

It reminds me of one of the more famous business expressions: Good today beats perfect tomorrow every time.
A good example on the original quote: King admits he is not, technically, a great writer. But his mind for story is kind of untouchable and he is an absolute master story-teller. There's a reason that several of the best movies ever made are based on what springs from his mind. It takes a mind for great concepts to produce the stories for the Green Mile, Shawshank, the Shining, Stand by Me, etc.

General Patton's quote was "A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week."

 

[Sedayne]

Super specific genre mashups definitely catch my attention, provided I'm interested in the ingredients (see also 'absurdist bureaucracy thriller').

At the risk of a shameless plug, have you listened to the latest episode of TWWN?
We talk to Claire about genre mashups.

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[LJ Beck]

"X meets Y" turns me right off. However, I don't know if that's what Claire's original post was saying? "A knock-out concept" is more than X meets Y, right?

I took a writing course years ago, and the first module was on high concept. He said high concept had 3 components; unique, appeals to a wide audience, and can be said in one sentence. But he then said the first thing to do was come up with "idea seeds" that fascinate you. He said if you select ideas that totally fascinate you, you'll have much more success. Then he had exercises on how to analyze and boost those concepts to make them "high concept". I love this approach. I think if you're going to write a whole book, you'd better be fascinated with the concept yourself first.

Anyway, hey. There's as many ways to write a story as they are writers. (Same is true for readers.) We gravitate to what fits with us. Maybe that's craft, maybe that's big ideas and less craft. I don't know if we choose that more than we're just pulled that way. All the success stories I've heard are different. And there's so many reasons why things are or aren't "successful" (usually only known after the fact.) So you know, fuck it. It's all a crap shoot. Write what you love, how you love to do it. More than anything, a passion for the story will serve a writer well. (That and the willingness to rewrite. ha!)

 

[Aethalope]

The X meets Y was just an exercise we were looking at to try and flex our muscles and develop those idea seeds. I am sure there plenty more out there.

Write what you love, how you love to do it.

This is very true, but I've been writing what I love for forty years. It would be nice to write something that others love for a change

 

[James Charles]

Readers want a thrill, first. So many 'high-concept' books are best-sellers, but would never meet the Litopia standard.

 

[Aethalope]

Readers want a thrill, first. So many 'high-concept' books are best-sellers, but would never meet the Litopia standard.

Also true. Though worth bearing in mind that different readers get their thrills in different ways. High-octane action, a deeply engaging voice, the exploration of a second world, a mystery to solve...all have readers.

 

[RK Wallis]

The X meets Y was just an exercise we were looking at to try and flex our muscles and develop those idea seeds. I am sure there plenty more out there.

This is very true, but I've been writing what I love for forty years. It would be nice to write something that others love for a change

Exactly. I'm not suggesting an exercise on high concept, just using this 'x meets y' method as a way to find a concept for your next book. The 'x and y' doesn't have to be some runaway seller, just one of your fav books with a particular element you love.

For example, mine is The Book Thief meets The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. Their success has nothing to do with why I've picked them, and I never set out to write with them in mind but they contain a seed that I love that helped me shape my draft.

But we can find another one. I'm a strong believer in 'you do you.' It's the only way to write

 

[Ed Simnett]

Readers want a thrill, first. So many 'high-concept' books are best-sellers, but would never meet the Litopia standard.

As one of my beta readers put it recently: "Being a bit crap becomes a feature not a bug"

 

[LJ Beck]

Exactly. I'm not suggesting an exercise on high concept, just using this 'x meets y' method as a way to find a concept for your next book. The 'x and y' doesn't have to be some runaway seller, just one of your fav books with a particular element you love.

For example, mine is The Book Thief meets The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. Their success has nothing to do with why I've picked them, and I never set out to write with them in mind but they contain a seed that I love that helped me shape my draft.

But we can find another one. I'm a strong believer in 'you do you.' It's the only way to write

I totally agree that analyzing why you love a story is a great thing to do. And then using that as seeds.

A while back I made a list of all my favorite characters, from books, screen, real life, and then I wrote down what it was that made them irresistible to me, and then I looked for the commonalities across them all. I got a great list of character traits that I find irresistible. I still refer to that list when I create a character.

I just find those "x meets Y" elevator pitches annoying as a marketing ploy. And often confusing. But it could be a fun exercise. It would also be fun to go a bit further and say what it was that we loved, and why, and how we'd use that for the story we're telling. And then put the idea into a "High Concept" pitch!

 

[RK Wallis]

I just find those "x meets Y" elevator pitches annoying as a marketing ploy. And often confusing. But it could be a fun exercise. It would also be fun to go a bit further and say what it was that we loved, and why, and how we'd use that for the story we're telling. And then put the idea into a "High Concept" pitch

Yeah, not wanting to do the exercise as a marketing ploy. Just as another exercise to play around. Great ideas to take the exercise further

I made a list of 10 things too (an exercise in a screenwriting craft book I was reading), I must revisit those lists and update them. They really taught me what it is I love in a story.

 

[LJ Beck]

This is very true, but I've been writing what I love for forty years. It would be nice to write something that others love for a change

I'm loving Voidhold Zero. It's a brilliant concept AND beautifully written, with great skill. I would venture to say that it's a matter of exposure, not that people wouldn't love it.

 

[RK Wallis]

I'm loving Voidhold Zero. It's a brilliant concept AND beautifully written, with great skill. I would venture to say that it's a matter of exposure, not that people wouldn't love it.

I must try. Yes, there's so many brilliant writers the world over. My youngest son has recommended a Japanese author to me (the one who just read Dungeon Crawler Karl), and the other son has his head in manga constantly.

 

[Aethalope]

I'm loving Voidhold Zero. It's a brilliant concept AND beautifully written, with great skill. I would venture to say that it's a matter of exposure, not that people wouldn't love it.

Oh, thank you! Love your comments yeah, exposure is tricky. My Malaysian bank won't let me pay Royal Road, so I can't do ads. Would have been fun to try out.

My youngest son has recommended a Japanese author to me

Oh who is that? Might be something for my son.

 

[RK Wallis]

Oh who is that?

Haruki Murakami, Norwegian Wood, although he hasn't read it yet just heard good things (probably on TikTok, lol)

 

[Josephine]

At the risk of a shameless plug, have you listened to the latest episode of TWWN?
We talk to Claire about genre mashups.

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Accept third party cookies

It was on my radar but you've just pushed me to actually listen, really enjoyed it! Feeling a bit inspired by all these genre combos...

 

[LJ Beck]

Oh, thank you! Love your comments yeah, exposure is tricky. My Malaysian bank won't let me pay Royal Road, so I can't do ads. Would have been fun to try out.

NOTE: This is RR related, and not realted to this thread. Sorry!! Skip if not interested in RR geekyness...

Shame you can't do an ad. I've done one. It's been good fun. More "read later" than follows, but that's good. Shoutouts are good and free. Did you get into those? Once I got on the shoutout bandwagon, I did them for almost every chapter. I joined the RR discord server, and there's lots of shoutout swap deals done on there. It's a very active server. And in doing that, I got chatting to some writers and they gave me some good tips. There's "launch strategies" that I'll try next time. It's a whole thing. ha. I learned (you probably already know this) that the very best thing for rising in rank (for exposure) is reviews. I jumped 1K rank for each written review. I'll write a proper review for yours once I've finished the 1st book. Apparently it really only matters if you make it into the top 100 and get on the RS lists. But it does make it exciting to try to get there. haha.